Federal Dollars and Local Transportation Plans

Transportation planner Aaron Wilson is back on The Agenda this week to talk about how the Missoula Metropolitan Planning Organization leverages federal funding for critical upgrades to roads and bridges. Aaron and the commissioners discuss traffic congestion, bypasses and how detailed planning gives Missoula an advantage during the federal grant process.

Links mentioned in this episode:

• Reserve Street Safety Action Plan
• Missoula Long-Range Transportation Plan Update

Listen to Aaron's previous episodes:

• The Infamous Reserve Street, 2024
• Reserve Street: The Sequel, 2024

Thank you to Missoula's Community Media Resource for podcast recording support!

Transcript

Dave Strohmaier: [00:00:10] Welcome back to the agenda with your Missoula County Commissioners. I'm Dave Strohmaier. I am joined today by my colleague and friend Josh Slotnick. Juanita Vero has had some car trouble at the airport and is a little bit late in joining us, so we're going to wing it anyway. And today we are welcoming back Aaron Wilson of the Missoula metropolitan Planning Organization. We can talk in just a minute about what the heck that means, but Aaron joined us about a year ago for a two part series on Reserve Street. I think we had record listeners, uh, tuning in to that one. That was a good one. And if you did not hear that two part series, please do check out our podcast collection of episodes and you can hear that yourself. So let's just get right. Dive in it. Dive in. Yeah. Let's dive in. Let's just clear the decks of some of the preliminaries. Aaron, what the heck is a metropolitan planning organization?

Aaron Wilson: [00:01:06] Yeah, well, at it's it's a pretty simple concept, even though it might seem complex. We're a federally mandated planning coordination entity. And so the MPO oversees transportation planning for the urban area and Missoula. And so that includes the city and parts of the county that are that, you know, close in to the city limits. And we essentially make sure that all of the transportation investments, and particularly federal funding is coordinated between the city, the county, the Montana Department of Transportation, and anyone else who might be doing work on streets and transportation.

Josh Slotnick: [00:01:38] Does that mean the MPO actually receives federal money and determines how that money should be spent?

Aaron Wilson: [00:01:43] Yes it does. So we all that funding gets passed through the state. And so we work very closely with Montana Department of Transportation. But we have federal funding that as an MPO, collectively, all those entities get to program for investments in the Missoula area.

Josh Slotnick: [00:01:58] And I know folks out there would be like, wait. Wait a minute. How is that this is happening without any elected officials? These are unaccounted, unelected people just randomly spending money. How are Electeds involved? So you don't just burn hundies?

Aaron Wilson: [00:02:10] Yeah. It's great. It's a great question. So we have a oversight board, the Transportation Policy Coordinating Committee, and through agreements with Montana Department of Transportation and between the city and the county, we have representatives from all of those elected bodies. So we have city council representation. The mayor, county commissioners such as yourselves, sit on tpc-c and then representation from the Department of Transportation and Mountain Line and a few other organizations. Yeah, it is a great it's high functioning and it brings a broad representation. And so it really does help think about all the issues we have around the region, outside of maybe what you might be focused on just as the county or just as the city.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:02:49] Well, no need to bury this. Bury the lead, so to speak. There are millions of Millions of dollars that Missoula County has been the beneficiary of in federal dollars for infrastructure projects. And as our listeners might well be aware, we had a major change in administrations on January 20th. And just this last week, there was a bit of chaos surrounding executive orders and subsequent direction from US Department of Transportation and the Office of Management and Budget on whether those dollars could actually be spent or whether we could incur costs related to these grants. And I know for some of us, one of the other side gigs I have is with the big Sky Passenger Rail Authority and some of the work that we're engaged in. We ended up, uh, essentially hitting the pause button with our contractors for about a 24 hour period when it was uncertain whether we could actually incur costs. What's your prognostications related to all of this. And where do these dollars sit right now?

Aaron Wilson: [00:03:58] Yeah, well, I can answer where the dollar is. Sit right now. I think prognosticating about what's going to happen in the next two weeks or two years or four years. If I could predict that, I would have a much better job, probably. But where we stand right now. So there have been a lot of back and forth on putting funding freezes in and then courts putting injunctions. And essentially where we stand right now is that all of the funding that has been appropriated and programed by Congress and awarded through these grant awards, I think the direction from the courts is that funding needs to continue to flow. And so that's how we're operating is that we'll we'll continue to move forward on these projects. But there is an interest, I think, in the administration in looking at how they can primarily focus on the discretionary grants and change that to better reflect their priorities. So what I would expect in the future is we see future rounds of grant funding like raise for is a great example. Now it's back to build. Exactly. And so we saw that even happen last week as we were preparing our raise grant applications, they change some of the criteria and the acronym back to build.

Aaron Wilson: [00:04:57] Really last minute still had the same deadlines. And so we got our applications in. But that's indicative of I think, how we'll see a lot of shifts happen is where the executive branch has the ability to change criteria or try to implement other priorities. They'll they'll do that. But my my hope is that with our formula funds that come through the state, those I think are relatively safe. Safe is maybe the right word, but there isn't a lot of targeting of those. Those will continue to flow to the states, at least until we have a new reauthorization, which is coming up in the, I think, 2026 and then discretionary grants. We'll see a shift in criteria and grant programs that maybe haven't been awarded yet. We may see some shifts there and which projects are getting awarded or. But my hope is for for projects around Missoula that we've already been awarded and we're starting to work on that will continue to work on.

Josh Slotnick: [00:05:42] Those some huge projects, generational projects. I'm thinking of the Russell Street from Wyoming to Mount. I mean, that's close to $60 million, isn't it?

Aaron Wilson: [00:05:51] Yeah. It's, uh, $59.5 million. And then there's additional federal funds coming through the MPO and the state that bring the total for that project to almost $80 million.

Josh Slotnick: [00:06:01] And how about the highway 200 reconstruction from Van Buren through East Missoula?

Aaron Wilson: [00:06:06] Yeah, that was 24 million in federal funding and for a total of $30 million. Yeah. These are projects that we just wouldn't do without direct federal funding. Yeah. Great example, Russell Street. We've been working on that project since the mid 90s. It's taken literally, you know, almost three decades now to get where we are today.

Josh Slotnick: [00:06:23] And and if someone feels exasperated by that timeline to look at what did Russell Street look like in the mid 90s and what does it look like now with a new bridge and then, bit by bit, inching south eventually all the way to Mount Street, though that seems like a long time and it is a long time. I don't think it's that long, considering the scale of the redevelopment and the cost involved.

Aaron Wilson: [00:06:42] Yeah, and the costs are really the big issue there, where what we see is every delay you have in these projects, you're adding millions of millions of dollars to your project just in inflation and construction costs have gone way up, especially during what we saw during Covid in the last 3 or 4 years. I mean, we're seeing incredible increases in costs through materials and and so what happens is if we don't get a large grant like this, we try to save up money to, you know, that we were getting from various different sources in the time it takes us to save that money. The project has increased in cost by more than what we saved. And so you're kind of always in this loop of you're either just biting off little tiny pieces at a time over 10 or 20 years, or we just wait until we get a grant like this.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:07:22] How long until we get the dollars obligated for Russell Street? Because I've seen that as a potential well, I won't say threshold, but greater assurance that we might actually be able to tap into the dollars less than being clawed back. Right.

Aaron Wilson: [00:07:40] Yeah. So the there's two things involved there. One is just getting the grant agreement, which is our agreement with the federal government on how we're going to do the to do the project. What funds are committed? Schedules essentially is like the contract for how we're going to use that funding. That's the first step. And then for obligation, there's a deadline of September of 2028 to obligate these funds, which is a couple of years from now.

Josh Slotnick: [00:08:02] And that's a ways out.

Aaron Wilson: [00:08:03] Yeah. But the funding we applied for was for construction. And so before we can obligate those construction funds, we have to get through all of the design, any right of way acquisition, environmental reviews permitting.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:08:14] And does all of that funded.

Aaron Wilson: [00:08:16] That.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:08:16] Is other mechanisms.

Aaron Wilson: [00:08:17] Yeah, that's all funded through other federal funding that we have through the state or the MPO.

Josh Slotnick: [00:08:23] And it's and those efforts are in process.

Aaron Wilson: [00:08:25] Yes. Those are already underway. Yep. So this is essentially we got a pot of money that allows us to accelerate that work and then actually do the construction once we finish those phases.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:08:34] So paint a picture for us in terms of how Russell Street is going to look differently once this project is actually implemented and on the ground.

Aaron Wilson: [00:08:43] There's two phases to it. The first Is completing Russell Street from where the. So the first phase included the bridge and a little bit of roadway just up to essentially where the Bitterroot trail is. And so we would be continuing that all the way south to Mount Street.

Josh Slotnick: [00:08:57] So it includes Wyoming to mount.

Aaron Wilson: [00:08:58] Yep. Essentially Wyoming to mount or I think Dakota to mount. So that's adding those travel lanes, adding turn lanes, adding sidewalks bike lanes.

Josh Slotnick: [00:09:07] I like the boulevard trees.

Aaron Wilson: [00:09:08] Yeah. Boulevard trees. I think as we transition into more of the residential neighborhood, that will look a little bit different. So the phase we're working on now is more of a commercial. There's wider sidewalks with sort of tree wells, and we'll transition to more of a landscape boulevard as we get further south into that residential neighborhood. So a pretty big change. And and then on Broadway, there's some improvements just connecting the intersection of Russell and Broadway back. So adding in some additional turn lanes and sidewalks and essentially just connecting that infrastructure along Broadway.

Josh Slotnick: [00:09:37] Where are we at with the highway 200 reconstruction?

Aaron Wilson: [00:09:40] Yeah, that project's still kind of in the starting up phase. There's a lot of lot of complexity there working with the railroad. So a lot of the focus right now is figuring out how that construction is going to happen. You know, whether the you know, what level the railroad, Burlington Northern will participate in that bridge construction, getting permits, getting grant agreements signed. That's another one where it just these grant agreements sometimes take a really long time. So it's continuing. You know, that's one that I think I've been just based on the grant program it was awarded under that being the reconnecting communities and had more of an equity component to it that I think there was some targeting for that at the administration. My hope is that they won't pull out these kinds of massive I mean, there's millions of dollars or billions of dollars invested through that.

Josh Slotnick: [00:10:22] This one would really change the face of East Missoula you want to describe what changes would look like in East Missoula?

Aaron Wilson: [00:10:28] So it includes a complete street reconstruction all the way through East Missoula.

Josh Slotnick: [00:10:31] What does that.

Aaron Wilson: [00:10:32] Mean? So it means adding in similar to Russell Street, adding in sidewalks and boulevards.

Josh Slotnick: [00:10:37] Curb gutter.

Aaron Wilson: [00:10:37] Curb, gutter. So better access management right now you can go to East Missoula and just turn off the road anywhere. So like high speeds.

Josh Slotnick: [00:10:44] So you'd have controlled access, like this crazy thing called an intersection? Yeah, exactly. Actual intersection.

Aaron Wilson: [00:10:49] We'll realign the intersections as much as possible. So they're more at a 90 degree angle. And you don't have these odd angle intersections. No signals. But I think there's enough happening out there. It's something we could look at if that's if that's warranted. So that's kind of the East Missoula piece potentially the most. One of the more important is just getting some good curb and sidewalk and lighting along that corridor would be really huge.

Josh Slotnick: [00:11:09] Really change how life feels like in that area.

Aaron Wilson: [00:11:12] It'll feel more like a, you know, an urban street that it's functioning as.

Josh Slotnick: [00:11:15] Yeah.

Aaron Wilson: [00:11:15] And then the other big piece of it is widening the railroad underpass to allow for a shared use path or some other connection.

Josh Slotnick: [00:11:24] Has the railroad have they contributed to the slowness of this?

Aaron Wilson: [00:11:28] No, I don't think it's the rail. I mean, we're still again, we're still trying to work on the grant agreement. I think there's just, you know, slowness at every level of government.

Josh Slotnick: [00:11:36] And if I remember right, the most expensive piece of that project is that rail bridge.

Aaron Wilson: [00:11:40] Yeah.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:11:41] And what likely makes it so complicated and expensive is we have to basically build another temporary bridge so that there's uninterrupted rail bridge.

Aaron Wilson: [00:11:50] Yeah. I like to say we get one bridge for the price of two. Yeah. Effectively. Right. But yeah, you can't you can't just stop rail operations for 2 or 3 months while you build a new bridge. And so you have to build that temporary structure, reroute the rail traffic over that while you're replacing the original structure and switch.

Josh Slotnick: [00:12:06] Switch locations a little bit, but not really subjects. Last time you were here, we had a fantastic discussion about Reserve Street, and if I understand it right, there's a safety study, something like that underway right now. Do you mind talking about that for a minute?

Aaron Wilson: [00:12:17] Yeah, we received, uh, Safe Streets grant to do a kind of a comprehensive safety action plan for Reserve Street. So that's looking at the corridor from Brooks all the way north to I-90.

Josh Slotnick: [00:12:27] Long.

Aaron Wilson: [00:12:28] Yeah, it's a long stretch. There's a lot of different types of Reserve Street through there. And the goal is really to look at what types of crashes are we seeing. Where are we seeing crash hotspots, what types of crashes and evaluate all of that and then come up with an action plan for what are the projects that best address those? How much would they cost? Get some concepts, even identify what are some potential quick wins we can do, like easy minor projects that we might be able to get funded in the next year or two.

Josh Slotnick: [00:12:53] So this is a step towards getting projects done.

Aaron Wilson: [00:12:56] And I know it can. It can often seem frustrating that we do so much planning and not a lot of building. And sometimes that's true. But I think this is an example of a project where it will really give us a roadmap, if you will, on like what are the projects, how do we want to prioritize those and then how much do they cost. And that'll really so we can take that information and we can then start funding those projects.

Josh Slotnick: [00:13:17] One of the things Shane, our public works director, Shane Stack, for those of you who don't know who he has, kind of drummed this into our three headed collective mind here is that when we go to apply for a construction grant, if we have at least 30% design done, we are looked at much more favorably. So doing this kind of work really seems to.

Aaron Wilson: [00:13:36] And we can really do the analysis we need to on each of those locations. On what does it cost to do the improvements, what are the benefits in terms of reduced crashes and more effectively dial in, like what is the most efficient project we can do? And then that just makes us more competitive for grant funding or through the MPO or through MDT, we can apply some of the other federal funds that we have to those fixes.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:13:58] Let's talk about a somewhat separate, not really separate but related topic bypasses. And my left shoulder and arm are beginning to seize up. So that's maybe why I thought of it. Uh, but periodically we in fact, even back when I was on the city council in the mid 2000, this was a hot topic then. And that is, is it possible if we just created a bypass around Missoula that would unclog the traffic and congestion that that folks experience on Reserve Street? And I just love to to hear your your your thoughts on that. Because admittedly, I am one of the folks who plugs up Reserve Street every time I go out to Costco or Rei and whatnot. So, thoughts?

Josh Slotnick: [00:14:46] Yeah. Can I say something to add to that? Is there a way to separate on Reserve Street traffic, where people are going to Costco or to the grocery store or Rei or something from people who are literally just trying to get from North 93 to South 93.

Aaron Wilson: [00:15:01] Well, I think there's two pieces there. Well, maybe more than two, but one is just understanding why people are using Reserve Street. How much of the traffic is actually just trying to get through the corridor in one fell swoop and not stopping somewhere? And we've done some preliminary analysis on that with our safety study, just to better understand how the corridor is functioning and what we might need to design it for. And it turns out it's a pretty small percentage. You know, maybe 25% or less of trips are actually trying to pass through everyone else. Using Reserve Street is if they're going to a destination on reserve or they're commuting through, you know, locally, there's just not a lot of that.

Josh Slotnick: [00:15:36] Kind of Hamilton to Kalispell.

Aaron Wilson: [00:15:38] No, I mean, I'm sure there are some of those trips there, but it's just a it's a small percentage, right? So so there's that factor. And it was the late Mayor John Engen who once said, you know, why do we want people going around our city? You know, we want them coming to our city. Right? I mean, it's good for our economy. There's a whole host of reasons you might want to be going to or through Reserve Street. The other complication with bypass is this concept of induced demand that what you often see in transportation is, you know, especially in highway widening projects, you widen the highway, say you add 2 or 3 lanes to to a major route, and you get some initial in the first year or two. It feels traffic flows fairly smooth, but then people start to use that route more, and then they shift their trips and they shift their behavior, and you end up seeing a pretty rapid return to the levels of congestion you had before the project. And this has happened all over the country in any number of different projects, that when the goal is to reduce congestion, it's very rare that you actually succeed for more than a couple of years. And I think a good example is Reserve Street, which was built as a bypass right in the 90s. Initially, I think there was a lot of traffic was flowing pretty smooth, but then within a couple of years you had big box stores opening. People used it more and it was relatively congested by the early 2000.

Josh Slotnick: [00:16:50] So a bypass wouldn't move enough cars off of Reserve Street to really for for folks to really experience an appreciable gain in congestion.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:17:00] Yeah, even if it did or regardless. Just looking back to Russell Street and that conversation, we're basically talking about $80 million for a mile. Yeah. Section of road that is being enhanced. If we talk about a bypass going around Missoula, the logistical question is, okay, where would that go? I know Josh would not mind giving up. His property in target range.

Josh Slotnick: [00:17:23] Would be a good spot. Yeah, right.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:17:25] But Blue Mountain I.

Aaron Wilson: [00:17:27] Yeah.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:17:27] We're probably talking half $1 billion.

Aaron Wilson: [00:17:31] Yeah. They're they tend to be really expensive. I'm not sure what Kalispell's bypasses cost over the years, but I know it's in the and there's was a bypass for their reserve street. So that's maybe a good example to look at.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:17:41] What did happen up there I mean.

Aaron Wilson: [00:17:43] Well so they did the initial bypass and then they saw what it did. Is it encouraged a lot of sort of suburban sprawl out in that area. And so people there were more people around that that were driving more. And you saw, you know, relatively the capacity there didn't change much. And I don't think it affected their main street all that much. What it was intended to, to, to offset, um.

Josh Slotnick: [00:18:05] It didn't reduce congestion.

Aaron Wilson: [00:18:06] There in the middle of a, another widening. So they're having to widen that bypass now because of all of the impacts and the additional traffic that they're seeing there.

Josh Slotnick: [00:18:15] So I've seen this in major American cities where you have elevated. So you have a highway over over a road. Yeah. And and the road's got access to commercial and retail etc.. And then there's this highway going over it, and it's pretty loud and intrusive and not physically very appealing. But it is how you put two uses in one space as opposed to a bypass.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:18:38] Yeah, I think they had one in Seattle, the viaduct and it.

Aaron Wilson: [00:18:41] Yeah. And they took it down. You know it's interesting they took well they did a very expensive tunnel to replace that, which is a whole different type of bypass. But yeah, they when they took that viaduct out they actually saw an incredible revitalization along the riverfront because it created this barrier. Right. So you put up this second story of highway that no one's you couldn't get to the Puget Sound from downtown Seattle. And they take that out. And if you look at the riverfront now, it's a very different it's way. I mean, just the amount of development and activity down there is phenomenal. So, you know, you think about Reserve Street. You could put this elevated highway through there. And mostly what that would do is to make Reserve Street a lot less enjoyable to be in. So it creates more of a barrier. Do you think.

Josh Slotnick: [00:19:21] Today do you think we'd experience some reduction in congestion if there was a highway connection between Russell Street and the highway.

Aaron Wilson: [00:19:29] Yeah, I think there could I mean.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:19:30] That's like I-90.

Josh Slotnick: [00:19:31] Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Wilson: [00:19:32] Yeah, I think that's you know, what we want to usually try to focus on is kind of redundancy in in facilities. So not necessarily create a bypass. But part of this Russell Street widening is you know I think a lot of people are using Orange or Reserve today that could be using Russell again. You know we don't often fix congestion with widening projects, but it will provide some redundancy in the network. So if say Reserve Street has a crash on it, you have somewhere else, you know Russell Street will function better. You have a wider route over the river. Um, and so I would expect that to have some impact.

Josh Slotnick: [00:20:01] Has there been talk of that ever talk of an interchange off of. Oh yeah. Russell Street.

Aaron Wilson: [00:20:07] Yeah, that's part of our North reserve, Scott Street master plan. Um, and we've done some evaluation. The hard part is getting across the railroad. The interchange itself is actually not the hard part. It's. How do you get from Russell Street over the railroad to the interstate.

Josh Slotnick: [00:20:20] That can get another tens of millions of dollars expense?

Aaron Wilson: [00:20:23] Yeah, exactly.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:20:24] While we're talking about some potential projects out there. How about Orange Street? The underpass? Yeah, under the railroad tracks and whatnot.

Aaron Wilson: [00:20:33] There is a project to rehab that I don't actually have a lot of the details on what's included in that, but the Montana Department of Transportation is working on a repair project that will help, you know, it's not going to widen that facility just because that's, again, impossible. Tens, tens and maybe hundreds of millions of dollars.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:20:48] Would it deepen it at all? Because there are the telltale signs of semis that catch there.

Aaron Wilson: [00:20:54] Uh, I think they are looking at the option of potentially getting an extra foot or so in there to allow those semis to go through. It's something that's on, you know, I think through the MPO, we're interested in getting some updates from MDT on that project just to see where it's at, at the very least, maybe making it a little bit more pleasant to walk through as well. If you've been down there recently, it's a little.

Josh Slotnick: [00:21:13] It's pretty rough.

Aaron Wilson: [00:21:14] Yeah, it's pretty rough. It's a yeah, a little leaky.

Josh Slotnick: [00:21:16] And hey, are is the bridge on the north side over the railroad tracks. The foot bridge. Bike bridge. Is that back open again?

Aaron Wilson: [00:21:23] Yeah, that opened this summer, I think in July or August. Yeah.

Josh Slotnick: [00:21:26] I don't live outside of town.

Aaron Wilson: [00:21:27] No, that's I think that's a great example of the North Side is just, you know, these bridges. And, you know, we need to not just think about new infrastructure, but think about how we're maintaining what we have and, and how we get funding to modernize all of our infrastructure before we think about adding a lot of new.

Josh Slotnick: [00:21:43] Good. That was jumped into my head in our conversation just a moments ago about Orange Street, that I knew people on that side of town who never walked or biked underneath the Orange Street Bridge. They always went over the foot bridge, over the tracks, and when the bridge was out, they experienced. They didn't talk about great joy of using that.

Aaron Wilson: [00:22:00] It's not the nicest, depending on who you are. I mean, some people might enjoy it.

Josh Slotnick: [00:22:03] Yeah, yeah. Aaron, everybody talks about roads and bridges. I mean, it seems like everybody's got a job and they're all regular people, but they're actually all traffic engineers. So how can these traffic engineers, these Monday morning traffic engineers get involved with the MPO and have their voices heard in these conversations about infrastructure?

Aaron Wilson: [00:22:20] You know, we're always doing lots of work. You know, You know, sometimes it's specific projects like Reserve Street and we'll be doing some outreach. So first week of March, we're going to be having we're planning some public meetings. We don't have those locations quite dialed in yet, but we'll do at least two kind of main public outreach events and then some more targeted conversations with people use Reserve Street regularly or businesses or schools. So that's kind of one way is those specific projects. And we have an engaged Missoula page for that. Um, it's currently on the city's engage Missoula, not the county voice, but so you could go there and find, you know, kind of get engaged with Reserve Street. And then we also do we update our long range transportation plan every four years. So it happens very frequently, which can sometimes get tedious. But also it just, you know, there's always opportunities coming up for people to get involved and have those conversations. And then we always like to go out and just talk to neighborhoods and communities about issues that they're having. It's not often that we can go and have a solution immediately available, but just having those ongoing conversations lead to things like East Missoula, you know, that neighborhood being involved and working through you with the the county commissioners. And, and then we get some funding to do a corridor study and then all of a sudden we have that project funded. So I think there are always those opportunities that can come out of the community conversations. Sometimes it can be frustrating, you know, like we come in and we hear a lot about what people are unhappy with and there's not a lot we can do with it. But, you know, you never know when those conversations can take on, you know, just start to build momentum and make improvements.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:23:48] Describe the boundaries of the MPO.

Aaron Wilson: [00:23:51] There's sort of two main boundaries that we have. One is our planning boundary where we do our main planning work. And that goes from Evaro down to Lolo and then east out to Clinton. So it's a pretty big area. And then our actual urban boundary where we're spending in programing dollars is a little bit narrower. It includes the Y. And that I-90 highway 93 intersection covers kind of that western edge of Missoula like Target Range Orchard homes down to Blue Mountain, and then includes all the South Hills and then out east to Clinton. Kind of along there's that little bit of I-90, sort of where you have Clinton, Tura, Bonner are all included in the MPO.

Josh Slotnick: [00:24:28] It's big. So yeah. Want to make sure I understand this right about MPO. It's if we cross a certain population threshold where bestowed the title, we get to be get to be an MPO. Didn't Bozeman recently become an MPO?

Aaron Wilson: [00:24:39] Yeah, we had two new MPOs actually. Bozeman, um, hit that threshold in the last census, um, as did Helena.

Josh Slotnick: [00:24:45] Does that mean we get less money, or does each MPO get the same amount of money?

Aaron Wilson: [00:24:49] It does. We get a little bit less. It's based on a population formula for the state.

Josh Slotnick: [00:24:54] So the.

Aaron Wilson: [00:24:54] State. So we get a. And this is partially because Montana because of our population and size, we're what's called a minimum allocation state for federal funding. So we actually get more per person than states like California or Colorado.

Josh Slotnick: [00:25:06] Works that way with everything.

Aaron Wilson: [00:25:07] Yeah. So it's good for Montana in that sense. But because we're that minimum allocation, you know, our population increases and new MPO doesn't mean we're getting more federal funding for that. It just we have to divide it up.

Josh Slotnick: [00:25:17] So are you saying that the dismantling of the federal government could have a negative impact on us?

Aaron Wilson: [00:25:24] Yes. Yes. Transportation for sure. Okay.

Josh Slotnick: [00:25:26] I just wanted to nail you down there.

Aaron Wilson: [00:25:28] Transportation infrastructure in particular for Montana. Again, we're a large rural state with a small population. If we were funding all this infrastructure ourselves.

Josh Slotnick: [00:25:35] We couldn't.

Aaron Wilson: [00:25:36] Do.

Josh Slotnick: [00:25:36] It.

Aaron Wilson: [00:25:36] We couldn't do the amount of money that the state can generate is mostly enough to cover the match on those federal funds.

Josh Slotnick: [00:25:42] That's the match. Not not the actual project cost.

Aaron Wilson: [00:25:45] Yeah. And then the discretionary grants. Just to give you an example, over the last three. Three ish years we've been we've successfully submitted almost $130 million in discretionary grant funding from the federal government. You put that into what we generate locally. So the city has, you know, between impact fees and gas tax and a few other sources, you know, maybe 3 or 4 or $5 million a year.

Josh Slotnick: [00:26:06] I just I just got to say that I just want for because it's important to me that gas tax, that's a state gas tax. Yes, exactly. 90 plus percent of that money goes to the state. A small percentage comes back to the city and the county. So if you hear gas tax, what the heck? No. You used to have one. We used to have one for like nine months.

Aaron Wilson: [00:26:23] Yeah, yeah.

Josh Slotnick: [00:26:24] That's true.

Aaron Wilson: [00:26:25] Um, but, you know, you think about those sources that we get, you know, we're probably less between the city and county. You know, we might get $10 million a year to cover all of our maintenance, any construction projects, bridges, all of those things. So the $130 million we receive in discretionary funding, I mean, it's just there's no. And that that would be such a huge I can't remember. We were trying to do the calculation of what that comes out to per household. And it's like thousands of dollars per household in Missoula.

Josh Slotnick: [00:26:49] Yeah. So we're we're grateful to be an MPO and also really grateful for the skill that you and your staff have in bringing in these grants, which has just been spectacular in the last couple of years. If I remember right, the Secretary of Transportation came to visit us.

Aaron Wilson: [00:27:03] Yes he did.

Josh Slotnick: [00:27:04] Yeah. He and I had a super memorable but like 15 second conversation with him. And he's like, you guys are on the map. I had to find out what was going on.

Aaron Wilson: [00:27:12] Yeah, yeah. And it's not just the, you know, us at the MPO. I think mountain lion has been really successful. The airport's been really successful. And when it comes down to is, you know, we again, we do planning. Sometimes it feels like we're doing a lot of planning and we're not seeing a lot. But then when you have these opportunities come about, you know exactly what you want to go after. And you have a really clear vision for what you're trying to do, and that really helps articulate that and make. Yeah, exactly. You can write a good proposal, sort of like a business plan. You know, you don't just go out and open your bid. Well, some people go out and open their business maybe, but.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:27:41] Then it closes.

Aaron Wilson: [00:27:42] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But I think good business owners, they have a really clear plan. And and even after the business, you know, my wife's a business owner, so I know some of this. But being ready for those having plans so that when the opportunity comes around, you're ready for it. And I think that's what we're a lot of what the MPO is trying to do is lay out these plans and infrastructure so that when those opportunities come up, we know exactly how we want to pursue it and how it's going to benefit our community and can articulate that well.

Josh Slotnick: [00:28:07] Great.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:28:07] Is there anything that you would like to get a plug in for right now that we've not talked about.

Aaron Wilson: [00:28:13] Well, you know, again, it's a reminder about the Reserve Street safety study. That's kind of one of our bigger.

Josh Slotnick: [00:28:17] There are opportunities for people to get involved in that.

Aaron Wilson: [00:28:20] Yep. So on the engage Missoula page, we have some kind of passive just, you know, providing some input. And then in that first week of March, if folks want to kind of track or we'll send out notice to the county as well, having those public meetings, and then we'll be doing some other opportunities for people to, to engage virtually or, or online.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:28:37] And coming attractions. I believe the long range transportation Plan update will be coming to a grand finale here.

Aaron Wilson: [00:28:45] Yeah, we're we're hard at work writing all of those chapters and putting together the work that we did over the last year or so. I think next month, probably again in early March, we'll have that draft released, and we'll get feedback to make sure we've captured everything correctly. And that's another good opportunity just to one see what we've been doing over the last year or two and then weigh in on did we capture it correctly? Yeah.

Josh Slotnick: [00:29:05] And then look forward to seeing it.

Aaron Wilson: [00:29:06] Always more work that will pick up as we, you know, get get through these next couple of projects and see what's coming after that.

Josh Slotnick: [00:29:14] Well, as we do with all our guests, we get to ask you this really fun last question. Yeah. So anything you've run across in the world of culture in the recent past, a book, a podcast, a song, and anything that stuck with you and you thought was worthy of repeating.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:29:26] And you cannot use the same response you did last year.

Aaron Wilson: [00:29:30] Yeah, I can't even remember what my response was last time. That's a good you know, I recently read a book. This may be relevant or not, given current political winds, but a book about climate change. Maybe I did talk about that last time.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:29:42] That's okay.

Josh Slotnick: [00:29:43] It's all.

Aaron Wilson: [00:29:43] Right. It bears repeating because I think, you know, just thinking about the to me, it was a really interesting overlap of fiction and nonfiction, um, around climate change. And now, of course, I'm blanking on the name, but I'll think of it as we go. Um, it's by Kim Stanley Robinson, and it's essentially a look at projecting out over the next 30 years or so on climate change and what that would look like, both at kind of individual levels. But then also, you know, in world economies and world politics. And it's so it's sort of like a speculative science fiction, but it's a really interesting there's a lot of economic theory, things wrapped in that. So it's a this idea of planning being, you know, we're thinking about the future and trying to anticipate what's coming, which is increasingly harder and harder to do. But that sort of when we talk about scenario planning or future planning, you often have to think about what is the potential future. Do you want that potential future or not, and what would you do to to achieve that? Or, you know, do something different. And so I think that's a from the planning side, I really like those kinds of ideas where you're not just thinking about what's happening today, but looking out into what's coming in 20 years.

Josh Slotnick: [00:30:43] And I mean, right now we have globally a record number of displaced people.

Aaron Wilson: [00:30:47] Yeah, exactly. The American Planning Association has what they call their trends report. So they look out, you know, what are these major trends we're seeing? They have kind of their whole they call it foresight planning. So they do this sort of scenarios where they think, okay, what happens in a future where maybe one of their examples is, say you have really high looking at housing costs cost versus work locations. Oh, no.

Josh Slotnick: [00:31:11] Like work.

Aaron Wilson: [00:31:12] Locations. Like remote versus in the office. And so, like, what happens if, say, if you have a really high housing cost, like, say, Missoula's housing costs continue to climb really high and work goes increasingly more remote. What does that mean for people in their housing decisions? Because then your your house potentially becomes your workplace. And are you able to afford that versus going to the office. So maybe you could have a smaller house because you don't need an office or, you know, versus, you know, maybe you're in a community that has really high remote work, but really low housing costs allows people to then, you know, expand. It's just sort of an interesting way to think about these future outcomes of how these potentially unrelated factors sort of come together.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:31:49] Or you do like Josh, he has a cot in his office.

Josh Slotnick: [00:31:52] Yes. Yeah.

Aaron Wilson: [00:31:54] Yeah. Do we need to start having cubicles with lofts that allow people to live there? You know, that could.

Josh Slotnick: [00:31:58] Be a loft.

Aaron Wilson: [00:31:59] Yeah.

Josh Slotnick: [00:31:59] The cloth. Oh.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:32:01] Well, thanks, Aaron, for joining us again.

Aaron Wilson: [00:32:02] Absolutely.

Josh Slotnick: [00:32:03] Yeah. Thanks for all you do, Aaron.

Josh Slotnick: [00:32:05] Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Wilson: [00:32:05] Happy to be here. Thanks a lot.

Josh Slotnick: [00:32:08] Thanks for listening to the agenda. If you enjoy these conversations, it would mean a lot if you would rate and review the show on whichever podcast app you use.

Juanita Vero: [00:32:16] And if you know a friend who would like to keep up with what's happening in local government, be sure to recommend this podcast to them.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:32:22] The agenda with the Missoula County Commissioners is made possible with support from Missoula Community Access Television, better known as MCAT, and our staff in the Missoula County Communications Division.

Josh Slotnick: [00:32:34] If you have a question or a topic you'd like us to discuss on a future episode, email it to communications@missoulacounty.us.

Juanita Vero: [00:32:41] To find out other ways to stay up to date with what's happening in Missoula County, go to Missoula.co/countyupdates.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:32:49] Thanks for listening.